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  #11  
Old 04-30-2014, 04:01 PM
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jcm0791 jcm0791 is offline
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Perhaps an instructors handbook needs to evolve ... this would go a long way to creating some consistency and stability in the school. It would allow a place to prioritise the most critical points that the student must come away with. After the most important points (I am going to say safety) have been grasped, then more subtle points can be moved on to.

It is a school, but it is really difficult to fail. One would have to screw up very badly indeed to not get a licence (think falling off the track or hitting another car). The truly arrogant will see it only as a hoop to be jumped through and they will be behaved just fine. Most people will see it as a learning opportunity of varying degrees of effectiveness. Then there are the others ...

These are the ones who could slot into the arrogant criteria ... except that they can't control their suit. They feel that they know more than everyone there (which is fine) but they can't control themselves in a non-competitive environment long enough to show that they are a responsible enough be allowed on track in a race situation... these are the ones that need to be corrected or, as a last resort, excluded.

So ... drive below your limit. Most racers (ok, maybe just me) do not make good passengers on a good day. If you are scaring your instructor they will not be able to instruct very well and you will not be able to receive information very well either. You will not impress anyone with speed at the school in any session that is untimed. You will impress with smoothness, good decisions and the ability to apply suggestions.
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  #12  
Old 04-30-2014, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt View Post
I can save you a school for that one. You push to hard, you are too hard on equipment. Aggression is a character trait, you will need to keep that in mind in order to try to create a new habit. It's as simple as that. Tire squeal = slower and using up equipment. If you're getting brake fade you're over using the equipment, time to dial it back a bit for extended races, etc.

From a racing line perspective I don't think you have any issues going fast.

If I may suggest, what you should be focusing on is learning situational awareness on the track with huge car speed differential. This is not ChumpCar, there are FAST cars out there that will be going by at significantly greater speed than you, you do not want to be in their way at an inopportune time. The key to that is driving your line but being aware of what it is that they are doing.
Thanks Matt, much appreciated.
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  #13  
Old 04-30-2014, 04:14 PM
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Update ... Jeff Smith just sent me a schedule and such ... It may be on the NASCC website but if any instructors need it PM me an email address and I will forward the Word documents to you... Which I haven't even read yet.
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  #14  
Old 04-30-2014, 04:31 PM
matt matt is offline
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Thanks Matt, much appreciated.

I just realized I forgot an o on too... Ugh.

Also - you don't have to be kind, feel free to disagree man.
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  #15  
Old 04-30-2014, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by matt View Post
I just realized I forgot an o on too... Ugh.

Also - you don't have to be kind, feel free to disagree man.
Not kind, just diplomatic. I think you know how I feel about how the EM2 needed to be driven to achieve the times I got out of it, so no need to revisit that discussion. I also think I do have lots to learn about road racing and driving in general, so am happy to absorb for now and then let my actions demonstrate (rather than words).
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'04 EM2 - RIP
'90 SW20 - Sold (regretsy)
'04 RX-8 - RICG
'07 RX-8 - <3
'91 RX-7 Vert - Work daily

Stratotech - 72.2 (EM2), 71.1 (RedSuns NA FC 2011 spec), 71.2 (NA MR2)

Castrol -
1:32.99 (Bandit FC - Chumpcar Edition)
1:29.1 (Bandit FC, PTC Edition)
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  #16  
Old 04-30-2014, 10:49 PM
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zhao kan zhao kan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EM2FTL View Post
Not kind, just diplomatic. I think you know how I feel about how the EM2 needed to be driven to achieve the times I got out of it, so no need to revisit that discussion. I also think I do have lots to learn about road racing and driving in general, so am happy to absorb for now and then let my actions demonstrate (rather than words).
I would agree. Remember when i tried to drive that thing nice not over driving it and not abusing the tires, and was over 2 seconds slower then josh's time that day? we're pretty identical for times in every other car we've ever both driven so its not like one of us sux hard. I also tried cheating and putting power down earlier and exiting corners on the grass for extra track space, so its not like i wasn't trying, i just wasn't retardo entering corners, nor could i of without a lot more laps to learn how his tires turn in beyond the limit.

IMO zero power fwd shitty handling cars that refuse to rotate needs a certain no fuks given attitude with over driving the tits off it missling it into a corner. mark lin's rsx was probably setup very similar to josh's em2, driven the same way, and no one can say mark's times were slow for that car, and i doubt anyone could duplicate those times in that rsx, except maybe josh. I drove one of my gc8s on skinny economy tires the same way, and i destroyed the tires doing so, but it worked. thankfully i've never encountered a rwd that needs to be driven like that, and thankfully ef/eg/ek's were built properly with a tendancy to oversteer so most people driving civics on a track rpobably never have had to experiecne the fail that was honda from 2001-2006
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Stratotech: FD - 68.3, NA FC - 68.9, NA MR-2 71.6 (Wet), NA MR-2 71.8 (dry), RSX - 73.0, GC8 WRX - 69.9, fugu's miata - 76.5 daytons+broken alignment and swaybar, em2ftl's civic - DNF
Edmonton Indy Track: IT2 FC race: 159.4 IT2 FC qualify: 159.5. IT2 class track records forever lol.
Race City: FD 129.x, NA mr-2 135.x
Castrol: NA FC 43.1 IT2 class track record until we run the short track again which may be never.
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  #17  
Old 04-30-2014, 11:52 PM
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going to resay what matt said.

yes, first step IMO is to ask what they know in 3 or 4 questions (dont need to play 4000 questions, just experience? know this? know that?), then if they know nothing tell them a couple things that may be useful, and then see what they know and just watch. I try to never say anything for a couple laps, unless we're going to die if i delay that long. Almost everything they know and dont know is exposed in a couple laps, after 4-7 laps everything is exposed, pretty much. For teaching, assess first, and then you know what to teach.

Then as matt says, and this is where i disagree with what conroy has said (that teach them to do Everything right, right from the start), they can't learn a ton all at once. focus on what matters in order of priority. lines are always where i start with for how to go faster, cuz it seems unless they have a year + under ur belt, a students lines are bonkers, and even with experience on one track, they may not understand WHY lines are fast on their home track, just that certain lines are the fastest. I wont mention heel and toe or force them to learn that while they are learning a line.

what tidbids do i give them befor we set off? car control. make sure they aren't getto leaning, and then 2 hands on the wheel at 2 and 10 (or 3 and 9 if ur one of those guys) and never removing ur hands is a priority to communicate. I always watch their feet too on those first too laps. make sure they aren't clutching in on the corners, make sure they aren't shifting anywhere except on straights. That's about the end of car control to someone new. lines, i explain start on the outside, apex on the inside, and track out to the outside. that's as advanced as i get before we set off.


but stuff like that is probably going to be echo'ed by most everyone. I rather talk about what i think instructors fall into the trap of.

1) talking about what works for their car like it works for the students car. I've driven a lot of different cars on the track, and they're all completely different. turn in, braking point, shift point, weight distribution, rotation, etc are all completely different. a lot of people have driven 1 or 2 cars only and so please keep in mind, what works for ur car, even if both are the same model, may not work for theirs. dont talk about brake points or how to take a corner in an absolutes of u can do it here! cuz i can, especially when ur talking beyond the very basics. anything advanced IMO gets extremely advanced very quickly and if you actually want to talk about what is fastest, you really need to be careful if ur experience is only one car.

2) assuming the student knows something. I rather assume they dont know something then assume they do, otherwise u may start using terms they have no clue wtf ur talking about, and the whole lesson u just told them has no context in their head, and is useless. I'm probably guilty of this most of all. I ask everyone if they know what an apex is, and no one has ever said anything but, ya i do, so i'm like ok hit all the apexs, and then they show me they dont know what an apex is.

3) giving the studetn too much information, or too advanced information. sometimes in an entire evening session all i'd be able to really work on is keep both hands on the wheel and basic lines in 2-3 key corners, not even the whole track. That's all that student is able to absorb overloading them means they learn nothing imo, or it gets all muddled up and wrong. Then again, some people like, diesel dakota, u recommend something like hands and 10 and 2, and its like ok, done, and its done, forever. Everyone has different paces of learning this stuff, or some specific things they learn very easy, and yet hang up on other stuff.

4) giving info designed to help new people and saying it is the end all be all of driving. saying being perfectly smooth, no tire noise, slow in fast out, not upsetting the weight balance, etc is fastest is absolutely incorrect. its faster then noobcannoning it around the track by 10 fold, but its not the fastest way to drive for a human being. better to say those bits of advice are a good way to get faster, but i cringe when i hear people say what every instructor should be saying to a new student is the fastest way to drive. no one fast drives like how an instructor tells a student to drive. if they did, they wouldn't be fast. also, no one gets truly fast without first knowing how to drive like an instructor teaches. F1 car drivers clearly are not pussyfooting it around a track only doing smooth instructor style inputs. Thier cars are often on the verge of crashing and are constantly catching it. Someone on 780brotuners said i must drive like shit because i said my car in certain corners is usually on the verge of snapping into a wall if i make a mistake. well, technically no they're not on the verge of crashing cuz its second nature, but pause life and put an inexperiecned driver in that situation and they would loop it into a wall not knowing how to balance rotation with the steering wheel on the edge of adhesion. imo, dont teach driving like that, but dont say driving like that doesn't exist or is incorrect.

5) being overly nice or positive. someone ur instructing is not benefiting by you telling them how many things they're awesome at. or that they're doing pretty good and you have no real advice. Man, there is always advice if they want to listen, unless your advice is really, u just need to practice what i told u over the last few hours more and then we can work on something else next time. The ideal instructor imo is probably a complete asshole too. The most helpful pointers i've gotten were from mark lin, who is on the same wave length as me as zero tolerance for any mistakes. Our conversations were always like, that is the wrost driving i've ever seen... no matter what we saw, no matter how fast it was, cuz there is always something we saw we could see wasn't getting done as well as it could. knowing how to drive fast, and actually doing it, are 2 completely different things. I know i know how to drive fast, but make a lot of mistakes in real life, so many, and i dont think that highly of what i actually put down on the tarmac usually.
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Stratotech: FD - 68.3, NA FC - 68.9, NA MR-2 71.6 (Wet), NA MR-2 71.8 (dry), RSX - 73.0, GC8 WRX - 69.9, fugu's miata - 76.5 daytons+broken alignment and swaybar, em2ftl's civic - DNF
Edmonton Indy Track: IT2 FC race: 159.4 IT2 FC qualify: 159.5. IT2 class track records forever lol.
Race City: FD 129.x, NA mr-2 135.x
Castrol: NA FC 43.1 IT2 class track record until we run the short track again which may be never.
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  #18  
Old 05-01-2014, 03:55 AM
steelbahamut steelbahamut is offline
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Not everyone learns the same way. The most successful instructors and mentors are able to recognize how a student picks up and retains skills and knowledge, and alter their teaching methods accordingly to ensure the students success.

A common trap ive seen, is instructors falling in love with the sound of their own voice.
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Last edited by steelbahamut; 05-01-2014 at 04:04 AM.
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  #19  
Old 05-01-2014, 04:05 AM
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jcm0791 jcm0791 is offline
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Originally Posted by steelbahamut View Post
Not everyone learns the same way. The most successful instructors and mentors are able to recognize how a student picks up and retains skills and knowledge, and alter their teaching methods accordingly to ensure the students success.
Indeed ... not even all things are learned the same way by the same student. Some things can be learned merely by observing ... others require much tutelage.
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  #20  
Old 05-01-2014, 05:06 AM
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i'd say if u just rigidly stick to one style regardless of it working or not, ur not really being a teacher imo.

But you gotta like talking about what ur teaching imo; i can't imagine teaching something i dont love talking about... If you say 5 words here and 2 words there, that'd probably be a pretty shitty experience regardless. I dont know that many ways to communicate with someone in a car though.

With one student what i call the 'jackie stewart method' of yelling the entire time what to do was extremely successful, but almost everyone else i tried that with it doesn't work. plus yelling gas gas gas gas brake brake brake brake, turn turn turn turn turn tighter tighter tighter power power power gets extremely tiring. it is pretty awesome to completely drive a car from the passenger seat when the student does everything u say to the letter though.

then you can do the timed method, with stuff like 'turn... now!' u gotta allow for their brain to process stuff which i find can be tricky. gotta say turn ins a little early everywhere, but then sometimes u dont... tricky as heck to nail stuff that way especially when ur trying to seat of ur pants feel stuff from the passenger seat.

or the using visual/mental markers. brake at 1, trakc out to that black strip, exit on the inside, etc. this method worked well on me i found, at least with getting taught the line way back in 08 or so. this can get pretty hard in technical spots though, especially if ur searching for good visual markers to use. also relies on getting a feel for where their car should turn in and all that. not too bad when turn in and apex cones are out as u can just be like turn in 3 feet before that turn in cone.

there is the allow to do, then explain what they did wrong and what they should do when there is time. pretty time consuming, and hard to execute on the track. but if ur focusing on just one part of the track or one skillset i do this a lot.

hmm, that's only about 4 methods i can think of right now i cycle to see what works while we're in the car, if there is something else i do its slipped my mind now. Any other methods i'm not thinking of anyone can think of for in car communication while the student is driving? lots of other methods to use in other situations but those are no brainers and u have all the time in the world in those situations, like analyzing a video or showing them how you drive the track. Its that in car balance of them doing something that takes fll concentration yet still actually hears what ur saying enough to listen and do. pretty challenging sometimes i find.
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Stratotech: FD - 68.3, NA FC - 68.9, NA MR-2 71.6 (Wet), NA MR-2 71.8 (dry), RSX - 73.0, GC8 WRX - 69.9, fugu's miata - 76.5 daytons+broken alignment and swaybar, em2ftl's civic - DNF
Edmonton Indy Track: IT2 FC race: 159.4 IT2 FC qualify: 159.5. IT2 class track records forever lol.
Race City: FD 129.x, NA mr-2 135.x
Castrol: NA FC 43.1 IT2 class track record until we run the short track again which may be never.

Last edited by zhao kan; 05-01-2014 at 05:15 AM.
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