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  #21  
Old 04-25-2012, 09:31 PM
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I'm kind of torn on this one. I like the cut of Ian's jib and agree that this city has potential, but I also can't help but feel like Katz has manipulated this little northern outpost to serve his own ends at the expense of taxpayers.
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  #22  
Old 04-25-2012, 09:39 PM
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I just think it's a pipe dream that this is going to revitalize downtown. Edmonton is far from "a progressive balanced city with a ton of potential and an exciting mix of things to see and do" and I, as well as many, many other don't believe this will do anything to change it and the rest of the city will suffer for it.
It is not a silver bullet, but rather part of the solution in conjunction with the new planned LRT, new RAM, new Leg grounds and a bunch of current and planned private developments. Arena on its own, yup pipe dream, but part of a larger plan, very possible.

I encourage you to do some reading

http://www.edmonton.ca/city_governme...town-plan.aspx

I'd love to regal you with my reasons, but feel like that is your job to undertake. Edmonton is quite a progressive city on many fronts and working to be on others.

To each their own.

I respectfully disagree and welcome you downtown in 2015 to the opening.
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  #23  
Old 04-25-2012, 09:41 PM
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I'm kind of torn on this one. I like the cut of Ian's jib and agree that this city has potential, but I also can't help but feel like Katz has manipulated this little northern outpost to serve his own ends at the expense of taxpayers.
He is a businessman, but also an Edmontonian and philanthropist.

He and the City have agreed to terms and a deal that some like while others dont, but at the end of the day, a $350million investment with considerable potential to return far more.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:43 PM
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I work for an architect as a PM yes, not not related to this project. I also CHOOSE to live downtown and I am an Oiler season ticket holder. Bias, sure, but not the root of my support.

It will be a city controlled asset, one for music, rodeos, monster trucks, circus, curling... you know, events that make living in the middle of nowhere palatable. Jesus Christ the rich hockey thing is annoying. It will include a community practice rink for ALL OF US TO USE and will be a catalyst to other major PRIVATE sector investments in the core over the next 30 years. Read up on what a CRL is and what it can do for leveraging monies. Is there risk? Sure, but the CRL the city has proposed is extremely conservative.

Loose huge - yes go on, please explain. *puts hand on chin

Clap,clap,clap. Great attitude and one without much apparent information on LRT expansion, bike route expansion and goals of attracting more people to live centrally. The downtown population grew from 6000 12 years ago to over 14000 now and is expected to double again in 10 years. Growth rates in the core are 12-16%. WE NEED to make change and endeavor to create a better city/living choices than what was passed down to us. That said, we do need a good road system for logistical and practical reasons.

There are business cases and examples for both sides, but do yourself a favour and look at the Columbus Model. Also, if you dont think 18000 people downtown every 2nd or 3rd night of the year will make a difference, perhaps i should stop typing now. These people will eat, drink, park, shop and want to be entertained....

Your opinion, I can respect that, but I cannot respect the imbalance of spending this city has. We need to reinvest in our core, compliment and support existing infrastructure over building new in greenfield areas and recognize that quality of life and amenity is an important factor of why people choose to move to and remain in certain communities.

If you want a backwater hicktown, move to fort mac. If you want a progressive balanced city with a ton of potential and an exciting mix of things to see and do, come to Edmonton thank you very much.
Thanks for addressing the bias - much respect.

Can you offer more clarification on how the revenue from the city controlled asset will be handled? As well as the maintenance of the property? How about event rental revenue for Oilers games held at this city asset? Surely we are not going to continue heavily subsidizing the Oilers through cheap rent after spending 300 million on a new arena?

Admittedly I knew little of the "CRL" model as all I'd heard was it was fancy words for taking tax dollars out if property taxes went up. So like a good little internets I googled it and on the first page were a plethora of links talking about how the CRL in Edmonton was really a ploy to divert proposed future tax dollars into an Arena fund.

Speakupedmonton had an interesting take. They talk about a CRL and then talk more about how the Columbus model and highlight how it won't work in Edmonton. The best part about the Columbus model was the bit about how it was privately funded and not funded by public tax dollars (http://speakupedmonton.ca/issues/details/columbus).

Also interesting in Columbus was the lack of significant increase in downtown property development in Columbus until six years after the Arena opened. More enlightening was that the construction spike that did occur was not centered around the arena but in fact occurred elsewhere in the downtown core.

I'm more than willing to be wrong here man - just that a CRL to me sounds like borrowing against a future that we can't be sure of. So (as you are more knowledgeable on it than me) can you explain to me what happens in the event that tax revenues don't rise at the rate which they are hoping they do (IE; property values don't increase)? How does the city service the debt in the mean time other than through the regular tax base?

Another interesting tidbit I picked out of a Sun article (http://www.edmontonsun.com/2011/08/3...ate-in-october) - I know it's the Sun - was that the CRL revenue would go to education spending if it wasn't diverted to downtown CRL related projects. So this means the city is creating a provincial revenue hole that will get picked up by Alberta taxpayers? Can you clarify?

From my brief research into the CRL I see that many people are pointing out a plethora of flaws in what is essentially the exact same as your above argument. Any clarification you can offer would be awesome.

I recognize there is going to be growth in the downtown core. But what you're saying is that in a decade we can hope that 28000 people will live there which makes up less than than 3% of the population of the city. So we're going to spend 300 million as in an attractor (not a supporter of downtown living like a condo building, etc) that will hopefully revitalize the core and result in an increase of 1.5%? I'm trying to see the logic here man - but I'm just not.

Furthermore regarding your business comment I'm having yet a harder time seeing how we're creating new business rather than simply transferring old business from a city owned and operated entity (Northlands) to a new entity (maybe Northlands) that has a less lucrative revenue sharing agreement for the City? I can see there will be a slight increase (as Downtown is a nicer place to spend time than 118th) but I really don't see how all of the sudden all 18,000 of these people are going to immediately go out and spend money because they are now near the shooting capital rather than the stabbing capital of downtown Edmonton.

To address your last two paragraphs - I'm all for balanced spending which is why I have a hard time swallowing that spending 300 million on an arena is a good thing when we've got other huge infrastructure issues to deal with. I'm not saying I support the continued growth of urban sprawl but I just don't see the logic in an Arena solving all of these issues nor do I see how it won't cost me dollars in tax revenue down the road that couldn't be better spent elsewhere.

And now I'll address your attitude. Cut the attitude, lets have a nice civil conversation unlike the other local forums.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:45 PM
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Holy shit man.

Manhattan, Robson, Queen West, St. Cath, central Paris, Whyte avenue even... filled with people, cars, action, excitement... A GOOD THING.

The whitemud at 2am, not so good.

While maybe not your choice of lifestyle, urban living with people all around, things to see and do, walk to etc. is important and that is growing in Edmonton. We need to provide a great urban experience because we have for far too long simply provided a good suburban experience... which again is fine if you like big open spaces and driving everywhere to strip malls. If that's your bag, cool. It aint mine and if our city is going to move forward and compete with other major cities, we need a better balance.

Congestion is inherent in places people want to be.
Just to be clear - I live just off Whyte in Bonnie Doone.

I love where I live, I"m walking distance to a dreaded stripmall that covers all my basic needs.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:47 PM
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Matt, I'd like to discuss your future campaign for Mayor of Edmonton.
One day.
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  #27  
Old 04-25-2012, 09:55 PM
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All can be found here:

http://www.edmonton.ca/city_governme...own-arena.aspx

Oh speakupedmonton... did they also say that it ended up being largely publicly funded

Cool and yes we cannot be certain with the prediction of what the CRL could do, but again, they were incredibly conservative with their $356mil expectation. That was based on a very low growth model, we are in a mid to mid high growth reality. Read above link for more on financials.

CRLs work well in some situations and very poorly in others. Our economic environment, growth predictions and expected net migrations are things many other centres simply do not have.

The arena is for THE ENTIRE REGION, not me and my 'hipster one gear friends' haha. This is a regional investment simple as that. It will contribute to a more active and exciting downtown. Heck people NOT going to the games might even come down to the entertainment area to be a part of the action. Happens around MSG, ACC now, TD bank north and even in little Winnipeg.

Downtown is 10% of our tax base, but receives only 1% of the spending. It is still somewhat embarrassing in parts and while there have been some amazing movement forward, we still do not have a core/heart to be proud of. Quite a few of us recognize that a downtown is often the 1st impression and last impression for visitors and business people. We need an attractive, vibrant and exciting downtown. This will help.

I do appreciate the research you have done though and you are a gentleman. Information is good.

Civil is challenging sometimes, but I will try
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:56 PM
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http://www.edmonton.ca/city_governme...framework.aspx

Awesome breakdown of costs for those interested.
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:57 PM
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Just to be clear - I live just off Whyte in Bonnie Doone.

I love where I live, I"m walking distance to a dreaded stripmall that covers all my basic needs.
Bonnie is good and that was not directed at you dude, but rather a blanket on all of this BS about sprawl happens so live with it.
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  #30  
Old 04-25-2012, 10:06 PM
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http://www.edmonton.ca/city_governme...framework.aspx

Awesome breakdown of costs for those interested.
Indeed. Very little direct tax involvement.

oh but won't somebody think of the children!!!!!!
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